Siddhartha Ahluwalia 01:29

Hi, this is Siddhartha Ahluwalia. Welcome to The Neon Show. I’m your host. I’m also the founder of Neon Fund, a fund focused on B2B software companies and investing in the earlier stages. We invest in Indian founders built for the globe. Today we have a guest who is a billionaire and who has written a book called The Book of Wealth, sharing his secrets on how he created his own billion dollars, right? Today I have with me Mark Mobius. Mark, excited to have you today on the podcast.

Mark Mobius 02:00

Thank you, it’s a pleasure.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 02:02

And the various topics that we are going to discuss in this book is how to do your asset allocation, how to create your first million dollars, how to create your first 10 million dollars and then the road to 100 million dollars and the time expected and the risk expected to reach there, let’s say.

And there’s also a probability, not everyone who follows this advice can reach there, but there would be, I believe, a certain probability, a 10 to 20% probability of reaching there. So how to maximize your probability of reaching there? So I would love to first hear your story, Mark. What’s your background? Where were you born? Where did you grow up in?

Mark Mobius 02:42

Well, I came from a relatively poor family in Long Island, New York. I was born of a German father and a Spanish mother. They were both workers.

My father was a baker and I learned a lot from them in terms of savings because one of the secrets, I believe, to becoming wealthy is learning how to save and not borrowing. I remember my father and mother always said, never borrow. If you’re going to buy something, earn the cash, save and then buy, but don’t borrow.

So that was a big lesson for me and I think it helped me a great deal in having success in the financial field. The other important point is that at the beginning of my education, I was not really interested in finance. I was interested in art.

In fact, I went to a school of fine arts and there I learned about creativity. And creativity is really a critical part of earning money because if you’re going to be successful in finance, you have to be creative. You have to be able to think of new things.

You have to create new ideas. And so that background in art, you know, a lot of people think, oh, if I study finance, I will become wealthy or it’s necessary for me to study finance or to study the stock market. That’s not necessarily the case.

The main thing is to become creative and of course, be diligent in your work. So that’s what my parents taught me. They taught me about saving and about hard work, being diligent in your work.

And I think those two things helped me a great deal. But I think the most…the other most important point is that in order to become wealthy, you’ve got to exist a long time. You’ve got to be alive to make that wealth.

So if you’re going to be dying at the age of 20 or 30, the chance of you becoming wealthy is not very good. So that’s why in my book, I mentioned health is wealth. It’s very important to remain healthy to, first of all, to earn the money that you want to earn, but more importantly, to enjoy what you have earned. So the component of health and money is very, very intertwined.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 05:37

And Mark, can you describe your journey that at what age, you know, you started your first work?

Mark Mobius 05:48

Oh, I started very early. When I was in primary school, I delivered newspapers. I mowed lawns of neighbors.

I did gardening. And then in high school, I also worked for companies to help them do their paperwork and so forth. Then in college, I’ve worked my way all the way through college, being a waiter, playing piano in nightclubs and all kinds of odds and ends in order to make ends meet.

So that was really the journey that I had throughout my education. And in fact, I loved being in university so much and learning that I almost became a professional student. I started at Boston University, then I went to University of Wisconsin, Syracuse University, I studied in Japan, then I went to University of New Mexico, and then finally ended up with MIT, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

So I enjoyed learning. I think that’s another very important point. If you’re going to become a successful investor, you’ve got to have curiosity and you have to be constantly learning. You can never give up learning.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 07:09

And if you remember, right, how did you earn your first $100,000?

Mark Mobius 07:16

The first $100,000 I earned was when I started my own consulting company.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 07:25

At what age?

Mark Mobius 07:21

That was probably when I was about 26, 27. Up to that time, I had positions in various companies, then I started my own firm. And it was a consulting firm. And I started making money doing that consulting work. So that was the first time.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 07:50

And this is, I assume, the year, roughly 1970?

Mark Mobius 07:57

Yes, that’s right. Actually, 60s, 1960s. Yeah.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 08:02

Yeah. And what kind of consultancy did you provide?

Mark Mobius 08:06

I did industrial research for companies like Bovo, like people who were farmers, farming associations who were involved in soybean production. And it was a wide variety of industrial research all over Asia. I did research in Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, so forth.

And India as well. In fact, I did one project in India for leather research for the UNDP, United Nations Development Agency.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 08:42

And how long did it take you to make your first million dollars from then?

Mark Mobius 08:47

It took about four or five years, because that’s when I started getting into the stock market. I was hired by a brokerage company in Hong Kong, and they sent me to Taiwan to open an office there. Then I became the president of the first fund management company in Taiwan.

And then from there, I went on to start the very first emerging markets fund in 1987. So that’s when I started earning more money. And it was about three or four years after that, that I made my first million.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 09:30

So you mentioned that 1987 is when you were moved to Taiwan, right?

Mark Mobius 09:37

No, actually, it was in 85, I moved to Taiwan. And 87 is when John Templeton hired me to start the very first emerging markets fund. That was $100 million, listed in New York.

And I opened a small office in Hong Kong to begin the research. And then from there, it expanded, expanded, extended. At one point, I was running $60 billion in emerging markets.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 10:13

That’s so amazing that, you know, glad to know that, you know, an American who made his first million dollars from Asia.

Mark Mobius 10:23

Exactly, exactly. It was really Asian, because when we started that emerging markets fund, the only markets were open at that time, were Hong Kong, Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand and Mexico, that was it.

All the other, of course, that time, China was closed, Russia was closed. Most of Latin America was closed. So it was quite remarkable the way these markets started to open up.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 10:56

So you mentioned in 1965, you were running your consultancy company in Hong Kong. In 1985, you built the emerging markets fund for Templeton, right? Yes. And what happened in between those 20 years?

Mark Mobius 11:11

Well, actually, the consulting work lasted quite a long time. And then I was a researcher for a brokerage company in Hong Kong. And that lasted a number of years.

So then it was only until after five years with a brokerage company that I moved to Taiwan.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 11:36

Okay, okay. And if you remember which year you would have accrued $1 million of wealth?

Mark Mobius 11:43

Actually, I didn’t really count that way. I didn’t think about the money. I thought about the job and about the interesting opportunities I had.

I really didn’t focus on earning a particular amount of money. But it came naturally. If you’re interested in what you do, if you’re happy in what you do, chances are you’ll do it well, and you’ll make money.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 12:11

Yeah, but just for our listeners, at what age were you a millionaire? Because if somebody has to emulate your journey and find their interest, right?

Mark Mobius 12:20

It was in my 30s.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 12:23

Let’s say by 35 or 36, you will have become a millionaire.

Mark Mobius 12:28

Yes.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 12:30

And because I want to track your journey down for our listeners, I think the first 10 or 20 million is really important. And if you’re, I believe, a wise man, then as you said, right, if you live long enough, then you can compound it over a period of time. And if you don’t do stupid things, if you don’t gamble, if you don’t spend it on various means of worldly pleasure, that so-called, then you can preserve your wealth.

Mark Mobius 13:00

Exactly. And I think for me, the secret was that I was so interested in my work. I didn’t think about money that much. The money was accumulating. And of course, I was investing that money, but I wasn’t focused on that. I was focused on doing the job, running the funds I was managing.

Of course, I was invested in the funds in which I was managing. So, it came naturally. And I think that’s a very important point.

In other words, you don’t have to be focused on money in order to make money. You have to be focused on the job you’re doing, try to do the very best you can, and money will come naturally.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 13:45

So, that’s a very important point. Because if you don’t count your bank statement and just focus on enjoying your work for long enough and surviving long enough, then money will keep on accumulating.

Mark Mobius 14:01

Exactly. Exactly. That’s right.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 14:04

Yeah. And by the time you started the Emerging Markets Fund, I know you were not counting your money.

But any idea by the time 1985 or 87, how much your net worth would be at that point in time?

Mark Mobius 14:18

In 1987? Yes. Probably at that time, it was in the area of 200,000, 300,000 like that.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 14:29

Oh, 85 to 87, right? This is just almost 36 years back at age of 50. So, it was only 300,000?

Mark Mobius 14:38

Yeah, it was only that much. It was only after when I started managing big money with Franklin Templeton that I made big earnings.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 14:48

Yeah. And if you can recall, let’s say you mentioned by age 50, you had $300,000 of net worth, right?

Mark Mobius 14:56

Yes. Yes, exactly.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 15:00

Right. So, at what point in time you became, let’s say, you had $10 million of net worth?

Mark Mobius 15:07

It would have been about 10 years after that.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 15:13

Got it. So, almost by the age 60, you made your first $10 million.

Mark Mobius 15:18

Yes. And of course, it compounded after that.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 15:22

That’s amazing. But let’s say by year 2000, I assume then on 1997, you made your first $10 million. And from 1997 to 2004, you made it a few billion dollars.

Mark Mobius 15:36

Yeah. By the way, I’m not a billionaire. I’m a billionaire maybe in Turkish lira, but I’m a millionaire, not a billionaire.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 15:45

But how did you kept on… what were the assets that you were investing in that made you your first $10 million?

Mark Mobius 15:54

Well, first and foremost, stocks because I was invested in the funds I was managing. So, that’s the first thing because you know at that time, we were not allowed to invest in our own stocks because it would be a conflict of interest. So, that’s one thing.

I was investing in my own funds. And secondly, I was investing in property because I was traveling all over the world and I was investing in various properties around the world and also making deposits in banks in different parts of the world. So, all this together and it compounded. It wasn’t a matter of gambling in any direction, but saving and really sitting on those assets.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 16:47
Yeah. And you mentioned you became 10 million dollars in US dollars by year 2000. So, after that, how much time it took you to reach like 100 million dollars?

Mark Mobius 17:00

About five years.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 17:02

That’s it?

Mark Mobius 17:04

Yeah.Because the market was doing very well. Things were going up and we were able to make good money.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 17:11

Yeah. And if you can remember, right, your journey to 10 million and 100 million, what was the top stocks that you owned that compounded for you?

Mark Mobius 17:20

It was not actually individual stocks. It was the funds. I was running frontier funds. I was running emerging market funds. I was running Asia funds. So, it was those funds that did well and compounded and made lots of money for me.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 17:41

Okay. And did you ever went on the private side towards venture capital or investing in startups?

Mark Mobius 17:49

No. Actually, the only thing we did in that direction was private equity funds where we did go into startups, but not individual startups, if you know what I mean.

In each of those funds, we had maybe five or six different companies in which we invested. And those did well, but this takes time. With a private equity fund, usually, it takes five, six, seven years before you can achieve returns.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 18:24

Got it. And what was the country, if you can remember, even from your fund standpoint, that made you the most money during those times?

Mark Mobius 18:35

I would say China. China was the big growth country at that time during those periods. So, China was a very, very big winner for us.

And Russia, by the way, we were invested in Russia. That did very well. Then only later that India started coming up and becoming important. So, I would say for the most part, it was Asian countries that did well. Korea, Taiwan, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, so forth.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 19:13

Got it. And when did you first invest in India?

Mark Mobius 19:18

Oh, boy. First invested in India, it’s about 25 years ago. I was invested in India when there was only one stock exchange, and it was open air.

I remember that being on the open air with bidding, and they had the Badla system. So, if you go back to that, you can understand how far back it was.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 19:42

Yes, almost year 99. And let’s say as of today, if you have to split by country, how much of your assets are split by which country?

Mark Mobius 19:55

Taiwan and India would be the top two, followed by Korea. And then Turkey, Brazil, South Africa, those were the countries.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 20:10

Got it. And China made you a $100 million USD person, right? You mentioned that. But now you have pulled all your money from China. Why is that?

Mark Mobius 20:24

Well, we found that there were big changes taking place, as you know, in China. The property market was in trouble. And we know that, you know, most Chinese have, I would say, 80% of their assets in property.

So, when property prices go down, they’re not going to be buying stocks. So, the stock market goes down. A lot of people think that, you know, the Chinese market is influenced by foreign investors, but that’s not the case. It’s really the local investors that drive the Chinese market.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 21:03

And I believe by 2020, you would have pulled all your money from China?

Mark Mobius 21:08

Yes, I would say that by 2020, yes.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 21:12

So, 20 years, right? So, what happened in China, like, can you share the journey that how you saw the Chinese economy boom during those 20 years? And now the various problems that the economy is facing right now?

Mark Mobius 21:30

Well, you must remember Deng Xiaoping, when he came in, he opened the door to private sector investing. In other words, prior to that, the government was the main, it was the leader of the economy. The government really controlled the economy.

And with Deng Xiaoping, it was a totally new era where the private sector could create wealth. And that drove an incredible boom. You saw China growing at a very, very rapid rate.

Then, with the introduction of Xi Jinping, the direction changed. Xi Jinping said the private sector should not lead the economy, it should be the public sector. And of course, that changed the total complexion of the economy.

So, it became less interesting and less profitable for investors because companies like Alibaba, Tencent and so forth were in trouble. They had problems with the government, they had assets taken away, et cetera, et cetera. So, the opportunities disappeared.

So, it was time to change focus. Now, there are opportunities still in China, but in the government sector. In other words, government-owned companies would be the place you want to be.

But that also assumes that these companies are going to be very profitable and have a high return on capital, et cetera. And it’s difficult to find that. So, that’s the reason why we really exited most of the positions in China. But we’re still looking at China. We think China still has great opportunities going forward.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 23:38

Got it. And how did your position and wealth allocation in India change in the last 25 years?

Mark Mobius 23:47

Well, you know, the Indian market for so long was quite illiquid. There were not very many opportunities and liquidity was low. At that time, you must remember, we were running a lot of money.

So, a position of $2 or $3 million was small and it was difficult to get that exposure in India. Then the Indian market started to grow. And of course, the economy was growing and is still growing at a very fast pace.

Now, it’s becoming more and more interesting. And you’re going to be seeing many IPOs coming into India, many very high earning IPOs and very high cap IPOs, which will provide an opportunity.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 24:38

And India, what are the areas that you are invested in?

Mark Mobius 24:44

In India, the most interesting for us, it’s quite diversified. Telecoms would be one area. Infrastructure would be the other. Power, anything to do with electric power is very, very interesting. And steel, things like steel and that sort of thing.

And then finally, electronics. So, it’s quite varied. The nice thing about the Indian market is that it’s quite varied. It’s a big country and you have many opportunities in many directions.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 25:23

And I would assume today, 30% of your portfolio would be sitting in India?

Mark Mobius 25:30

20%, I would say now.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 25:34

Got it. So, still you would say the majority of the portfolio still is in Taiwan?

Mark Mobius 25:39

The largest portion, about equal to India, Taiwan.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 25:45

Okay. And what makes you bullish on Taiwan when we know that, right? Taiwan is like semi-controlled by China. Yeah.

Mark Mobius 25:53

Well, Taiwan is producing most of the high-end semiconductors. They are leading in that field. And there are many supporting companies, software companies. They call them the fabulous companies that support that industry.

So, it’s a very profitable area. So, the companies in Taiwan are quite profitable. They’re growing. And of course, the connection with China is there as well. So, in some ways, you’re getting indirect exposure to China with very profitable companies.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 26:39

Right. And in India, you have grown your position over the last, I would say, 10 years, the maximum?

Mark Mobius 26:51

Yes. Yes.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 26:52

What are the causes that led you to, or the changes that you saw in India that led you to believe so much in India, that 20% of your portfolio is sitting in India?

Mark Mobius 27:04

Well, a number of reasons. So, first and foremost, it’s about growth. The Indian economy, as you know, is growing at a very fast pace, one of the highest in the world.

And of course, a company that’s growing at 7%, a country that’s growing at 7% means that the companies are growing at 14%. So, that’s the first thing, growth, rapid growth.

Second, population. India now has far more people than China. And most importantly, it’s a young population. The average age in India now is about 26, 27, compared to about 37 for China.

So, that means that you’re in not only a high growth economy, but an economy that because of the young population will continue to grow at a fast pace.

The third thing is really connected to Mr. Modi, because he introduced the idea of digitizing the Indian economy and making digital communications open to all Indian people. What does that do?

What it does, it accelerates education, it accelerates productivity, and it provides jobs. I know India is facing a demand for more and more jobs. And I think that that demand will be satisfied as a result of what’s happening in terms of the technological growth in India.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 29:00

Got it. And where do you think the next 20 years for India are?

Mark Mobius 29:05

The next 20 years for India means that India will become a global leader in many directions. Right now, India is a global leader in software, but it will become a leader in computer hardware. It will become a major producer of high-end semiconductors.

And from that, of course, an entire industry will grow, as we’ve seen in China. So that’s the first thing. The second thing is that because of its outreach, India will have an incredible impact on the rest of the world.

Because the fact that so many Indians are able to master English and other languages means that they can enter other countries and contribute to the growth of other countries as well. So I think that’s another very important factor that we’re going to be seeing.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 30:11

And do you think at any point of time in the future, can India’s GDP overtake China’s GDP?

Mark Mobius 30:19

Oh, yes, definitely. Because you’re seeing China is growing at, let’s say, 2% or 3%. India is growing at 7%. Definitely, India will overtake China.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 30:32

And how much time period would you estimate that?

Mark Mobius 30:35

About, I’d say, about 15 years.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 30:40

That’s a very fast because India’s economy today is at 4 trillion dollars and I assume China would be today at what? 18 trillion dollars of GDP? 18 or 19?

Mark Mobius 30:51

Yes, but that gap will change, will move very quick, will close very quickly.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 30:58

Got it. So you would see the standard of living of the masses in India immediately shift tremendously upwards. Is that so?

Mark Mobius 31:08

That’s already happening. We’re seeing that happening as we speak. Per capita incomes are moving up, people are becoming more wealthy and as a result of technology, this will be accelerating. You will see a much more accelerated growth.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 31:30

And it’s fair to say that your 20% allocation right now to India, there’s a chance of increasing your wealth allocation to India over a period of time?

Mark Mobius 31:40

Yes, that’s right. As more companies, you’re going to see more IPOs, more successful companies will come to the market, then the weighting will increase.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 31:51

And what are the names of the funds through which you are invested in India? Is this still Templeton?

Mark Mobius 31:58

No, we’re starting a new fund because I’m investing my own money, but we’re starting a new fund called the Mobius Emerging Opportunities Fund that will be launched in September of this year.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 32:14

And what is the focus of the fund?

Mark Mobius 32:20

The focus, of course, is emerging opportunities. The reason why we use that term is that it’s, of course, emerging markets, but it’s emerging markets in a wider scope. Because what we’ve found is that, for example, in America, there are many listed companies that depend on their growth in emerging markets. So why should we not invest in American stocks, as well as Indian or Chinese or Brazilian stocks?

So that’s the reason why we’ve opened it up and becoming a much wider field. And I believe more and more Indian companies will be listed in the US as they grow and as they expand globally, that’s already beginning to happen.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 33:14

But what I see is a reverse trend that Indian companies registered in the US, like large companies at 300-500 million annual revenues, even in Singapore, they’re flipping the HQ back to India to list in the Indian stock exchanges. I have a few examples there also. Some of the Indian startups that have scaled to 500 million or more revenue, like Meesho, Razorpay, Pine Labs in Singapore, they’re coming back to India.

Mark Mobius 33:50

Yes, that will happen because India, the Indian market is becoming larger and larger, becoming more liquid. And of course, many Indians are not able to invest in the US for various reasons. Therefore, these companies, in order to get exposure to that investor base, they should be invested in India.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 34:15

Then you mentioned another statement that I would like to ask why on that, right? Why would Indian companies list in the US?

Mark Mobius 34:24

It’s all about liquidity. The US market is the largest market in the world by far, and it has incredible liquidity and a very deep investor base. And you must remember that many Americans are unable to invest directly into India, exchange controls, various number of reasons.

So in order for an American investor to invest in an Indian stock, they’ve got to have that stock listed in New York or one of the exchanges in the US.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 35:05

Got it. And now coming back to your book, right? What are the principles that you have shared in your book for wealth creation?

Mark Mobius 35:14

Well, there are a number of principles I have in the book, but I would say the two most important ones is what we started out this conversation with, and that is health. Health is wealth. In other words, you’ve got to live a long time in order to become wealthy. That’s number one.

Of course, there are some people that become multimillionaires when they’re a teenager or 20 years old, but that’s very, very unusual. That’s number one.

The second principle is that you’ve got to be patient. You’ve got to be willing to take a long view and invest for the long term, not for the short term, not to gamble. And another point that I make in the book is that you should be diversified.

In other words, don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Diversify your holdings. But the first and foremost in your portfolio should be stocks. You can have bonds, you can have property, you can have gold, you can have many other investment objects, but the primary part of your portfolio should be stocks.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 36:27

And how much you know for wealth creation should a person be exposed to private markets, markets which are composed of startups or even private equity?

Mark Mobius 36:40

I would say maybe 10 or 15 percent at most because startups, if you look at the history of startups, one out of 10 succeed. So your chances of success are much less than if you go into the stock market and look at companies that already have a proven record of success and where you can see that the numbers, the return on capital, the profitability, the growth is there. So your chances of success are going to be much better.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 37:17

And what part of your own portfolio percentage is dedicated to startups?

Mark Mobius 37:24

A very small part, I would say only about 2 percent of the total, very small. And that startups would be in startup funds, companies, funds that invest in startups.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 37:40

Any examples or any names that you can share?

Mark Mobius 37:44

I invest in a fund in India, which does startups. And that’s why I’m thinking, I still have some investments in Franklin Templeton and private equity funds. But that’s the only.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 38:07

And what are the factors that you have quoted in your book that prevent wealth creation?

Mark Mobius 38:14

First of all, gambling, you know, using your money to gamble in the stock market or in the casino or anywhere else. That is a sure way to lose money and to become poor. So gambling is the first thing.

The second is to stop learning. If you close your mind to new ideas, the chances are you’re not going to be successful because the world is changing and you’ve got to be ready for those changes. And thirdly, I would say being abreast and using technology with artificial intelligence.

You’re able now to do so much more than any time before in the history of mankind. And you’ve got to take advantage of those opportunities.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 39:17

And you shared two traits about the creation of wealth. The first one was health is wealth. And the second one is patience. But what are the other factors that you have seen or observed among the best investors of the world?

Mark Mobius 39:33

I think the other factor is making as many contacts as possible. In other words, get to know as many people as you can because you will be able to learn from them. So one good book you should read is ‘how to win friends and influence people’. It’s a very old book but it’s a very valuable book because it tells you how you can get to know people. And to understand them and learn from them.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 40:11

Yeah. Warren Buffet also recommends this book. And which other investors have you personally learned from?

Mark Mobius 40:21

I would say John Templeton. John Templeton was a legendary investor. He was one of the first to look globally, to invest globally.

Different from Warren Buffet. Warren Buffet, as you know, stays mostly in the US market. But John Templeton went global. He looked at stocks all over the world, which is why he started and asked me to start the Emerging Markets Fund.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 40:53

And anything specific besides what you have shared that you have learned personally from John Templeton?

Mark Mobius 41:00

I learned frugality from him. He was a billionaire and yet he lived very simply. He saved money.

He didn’t waste money in any direction. So I think that was a big lesson for me. And again, learning. He was constantly reading. He was constantly learning new things, even after he had become a billionaire.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 41:26

And you mentioned that your portfolio is almost 0% in the US right now. Any specific reasons for that?

Mark Mobius 41:38

Oh, no, it’s not 0% in the US. I still have US stocks. But those are stocks that are growing rapidly and stocks that have exposure to emerging markets.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 41:52

Okay. Any specific reason that the US is not among the top three countries or four countries? Is the US economy in recession right now? Or is the, I would say, the government in the US not focused in the right direction to nurture capitalism?

Mark Mobius 42:10

No, because the US is not growing at 7%, like India and like other countries. The great thing about emerging countries, emerging markets, is that they’re growing at a fast pace, double that of the US and developed countries. You want to be in countries that are growing fast. Because countries that are growing fast will have companies that are also growing fast. Yes. So that’s critical.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 42:40

And right now, let’s say, if you have to say, who are the top five leaders in the world that you respect the most and will shape the next 10 years of the world? Who would they be?

Mark Mobius 42:53

Well, I think Modi comes out on top, I would say, to begin with. It makes it very difficult to find any others, frankly. I would say the leadership in Singapore is very, very good. And that’s really a team rather than one person. And then leaders in Taiwan also very very good.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 43:19

Why are you living in Dubai right now for the last three years? Is it because of the lifestyle is great there, the facilities are great?

Mark Mobius 43:31

The weather is good. I love warm weather. And the tax regime is very good because there’s no personal income tax.

One of the most important things when you look at wealth, you’ve got to make sure you can preserve it. And the government doesn’t take too much of your wealth. So taxation is very critical.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 43:55

And while you were making your wealth, which country were you keeping your wealth in? Right now, I believe it is Dubai. But before Dubai, what was the country that you kept your wealth in?

Mark Mobius 44:07

I have bank accounts in various parts of the world. Again, you have to diversify, whether it be in Singapore or Hong Kong or in Switzerland, you have to diversify your wealth.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 44:27

And there have been various narratives that the world is going into global recession, few factors, right? Two parallel wars going on right now. The US has been printing on money and is in severe debt. What are your views on it?

Mark Mobius 44:44

I don’t think the world is going to go into recession anytime soon, simply because there’s just too much going on, too much growth going on. Of course, you will have downturns from time to time, but these will be temporary. That will not be something that will last for a long time.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 45:01

Thanks a lot. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Mark Mobius 45:05

Right. It’s a pleasure.