Episode Number 216 / May 23, 2023

Podcasting to Investing: breakdown of our journey

24 min

Episode Number 216 / May 23, 2023

Podcasting to Investing: breakdown of our journey

24 min
Listen on

In today’s episode of the 100x Entrepreneur podcast, we’re joined by our very own co-founders, Nansi Mishra, and Siddhartha Ahluwalia.

Did you know what these two have been cooking up some incredible strategies? While many listeners might not be aware, Nansi will reveal how Siddhartha’s passion for investing led him on an extraordinary journey. Siddhartha shares his quest of understanding the VC world from close quarters, his struggle to get into the world of VC, and his final landing at Prime Ventures Capital as the community head.

Nansi and Siddhartha also throw light on the dynamic landscape of second-time founders, Siddhartha’s preference for companies, and why SaaS companies are securing funding with relative ease nowadays. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, an aspiring founder, or just curious about the startup space, this episode is your one-stop resource for all things venture capital.

Learn what it takes to attract VC attention and raise that crucial funding. Subscribe to the 100x Entrepreneur podcast today for more inspiring and informative episodes on the entrepreneurial journey!🚀✨

Read the transcript Here:

Nansi 0:00

Hi, everyone. I’m Nansi, and welcome to the podcast. Today I will be hosting, and my guest for today is Siddhartha. [chuckles] So, as you know, we have recorded two episodes earlier. In the first episode, we recorded: how we started the podcast, what was the motive, and how you can also start the podcast, how do you cold email, how do you reach out to guests and things like that. In the next episode, we discuss what kind of opportunities we both got through the podcast. Like Siddhartha got opportunities to work with Prime Venture Partners and then Amazon and I also got to work with so many founders. I thought that I needed to work on many skills, including communication skills. It really helped me and there are many other opportunities I got. So we talked about those things in the next episode. Today, we will be talking about investing because there is one part of 100x Entrepreneur, which there are many people who listen to the podcast they don’t know about, and only founders know this side of us. What cooks behind the curtains, right? There is a little secret I want to share. We started the podcast. During that time, Siddhartha wanted to get into investing: venture capital, and he started reaching out to many VC firms asking for job. Not even a single job he got. [chuckles] Then he got an offer from Prime Venture Partners, and he wanted to specifically work on investing, but it was about community. He was supposed to head the community they were building for Prime Venture Partners, their founders and anyone who want to know about Prime Venture Partners. Tell me Siddhartha, you wanted to get into VC, but there is this unique opportunity you got and I know that you were not very sure about the opportunity. Why did you accept that offer?


How did you feel?


Siddhartha 1:45

[laughs] I felt bad. One thing was that, as an entrepreneur, I developed persistence, right? So I never stop reaching out to VC firms and what was happening is, while I was going to VC offices to record the podcast, I checked after it, right? During one such interaction, I came to Prime Venture’s office in Whitefield from Delhi and after the podcast, I checked with Amit that, ‘hey, is there a role in investing?’ And after three months, there was complete silence. And one day, Amit reached out that ‘there is no investing rule, but there’s a role for Head of Community where, you know, you can build community initiatives like that, like your own podcast you can build at Prime.’ So for me, the first reaction was let me grab it, because that gives me a foot in the door in the world of venture capital. So that foot in the door was very important for me, irrespective of even I think if somebody would have asked me to clean the floors in a VC office, I might have accepted it. [laughing]


Nansi 3:34

You got the opportunity to work with a VC firm. You were not working on investing; you were managing the community from Prime Venture Partners. And you were also doing like the podcast, your own podcast, like our podcast, and the podcast for financial partners. What was happening in your mind like for investing, as in how far have you reached and what were you doing at that time? (SPEAKS HINDI)


Siddhartha 3:55

So before Prime right we were at SHEROES, both you and me. We had deployed very few cheques; I think two or three cheques, like we met Taran of Neeman’s. He agreed to sponsor the podcast and that’s how I offered Taran that ‘hey, can you take a small cheque from us?’. [chuckles] That’s how investment in Neeman’s happened. Two or three cheques like that happened and I got my own taste. It was just me versus me. So there was no learning happening where I could debate ideas with other people on investing. Is this a good opportunity or not? So let me move forward, right? What happened is, after Prime, I joined Amazon Web Services and Amazon Web Services allowed you to invest. So at that point of time we started building the fund one which was very small, right?


Nansi 4:30

There were many people who were telling you not to join AWS because it’s not going to give you the kind of investing experience you were looking for at that point in time. Then what made you join Amazon?


Siddhartha 4:41

So I always lacked the large company experience in my life.


So we have to go back one year before, right? When we together started the podcast in 2018, my aim was to understand how venture capital works and it came from a point of vengeance that I did not get a Series A, right? Many people said that my own startup had a small market size, which was serving you know, we were building a community for mothers giving them child health care production services, both digital and physical. I want you to understand how VCs think. And through one year of the podcast from 2018 to 2019, I got the theoretical side of it, where we recorded almost 50 plus venture capitalists on a podcast including Sequoia, you know, the best of venture capitalists in India, right? Rajan Anandan was also there and I went to Rajan’s house in Delhi to record the podcast when I thought like, now let me get to learn the practical aspect of it, right? How can I put money and make it work for the VC firm I work with? VCs told me that you are not Kunal Shah, neither you are McKinsey, nor you come from a top tier MBA College.


Nansi 4:45

You were ticking box that ‘I wanted to get into VC; I want to just experience what happens inside a VC office from decision-making to what kind of founders they meet, what kind of founders they reject, what kind of founders they go with or how a day in a VC office look like.’ You had all these experiences and then within just three-four months, you decided to move on.


Siddhartha 5:09

So Amazon Web Services I had applied, right, even before I’d applied to Prime and AWS process is so long that it takes six to nine months for them to consider an application. And the thought process was very simple. What I lacked in my life was I wanted to learn venture capital being in a VC firm. At the same time, I had never worked in my life at a large company and the role that was in AWS was in a startup or business development role where I had to interact with startups day in and day out. So I have spent my entire life with startups.


Nansi 5:35

I think when you got the opportunity from Prime Venture Partners, and you got selected in AWS, you kind of got that confidence.


Siddhartha 5:43

So entrepreneurship can be like you can be in a self bubble also that you are doing good, right? And you have built something that few people accept, right — your users and your investor — but as a large world as a whole, when a VC firm accepts you and then the largest ask company, which is Amazon Web Services accepts you then you get a self-validation that you have like gone two levels ahead in the game.


Nansi 6:03

Is it a good thing, you need validation?


Siddhartha 6:05

I think validations are needed. That’s why you know, founders even celebrate after getting large VC rounds. Because you know, when you are a doer, you’re a founder, you are always having self doubts. You need to overcome that self doubts. Small validations from outside; there’s no harm in getting validation from outside. If you, you’re constantly self-validating –


Nansi 6:21

Then there are people who say ‘you don’t have to celebrate fundraising, like whenever you raise a fund, it’s not a thing you should celebrate, because it’s not an achievement. You are not profitable yet. Just because you have raised around should not be the reason you’re celebrating.’.


Siddhartha 6:35

You should celebrate just for the only reason that what you’re doing is on the right track, because a investor or a group of investors who had 1000s of opportunity or even hundreds, chose you among the hundreds of opportunities to be part of the journey for the next 10 years, right?


Nansi 6:50

But there are many companies who fail after raising that amount.


Siddhartha 6:52

Failure is okay, right? Even you can fail after joining a large corporate. Failure can happen any second because success, you require 100 things to go right. Failure, one reason is enough to fail. For a founder to become great, right, there is a combination of self-doubt and confidence which is needed. If you only have self-doubt, you will probably kill your own venture, before it even sees the world. Right? You will doubt it too much. If you have too much confidence, which is delusional, you will just keep on clapping for yourself, even without launching the product. [chuckles] And you will give product in hand of one user and think that ‘oh this is it.’


Nansi 7:22

So delusional founder is someone who doesn’t want to take feedback from anyone except – [laughing]


Siddhartha 7:28

Except for herself. So what happens in case of a delusional founder is the founder reaches out to a VC and VC gives feedback. The founders will think it in a reverse way. ‘The VC is not right and the VC is not able to see what I’m building. So he’s stupid.’ [chuckles]


Nansi 7:40

Do you think second-time founders become delusional founders?


Siddhartha 7:43

I think it’s rare for like… again just a balance, right? And second-time founders are in more self-doubt than first-time founders, because as first-time founders, you have nothing to lose except your time and the opportunity cost. [snickers] In second-time founders, they’re overthinking on their reputation. So if they fail the second time, they think that the world will think very differently of them. So the pressure to be right is so much more on second-time founders. It’s not the pressure the world puts on them. It’s the pressure they put on themselves.


Nansi 8:08

But don’t you think that second-time founders think that they won’t lose something big and that it won’t be a massive opportunity cost because they have financial freedom, if they are successful? (SPEAKS HINDI)


Siddhartha 8:19

I think because once a person achieved financial freedom, they can do anything with their life, right? If they’re choosing to commit next 10 years of their life to something. In most of the cases, it’s the last or the second-last stint they are building. So in their eyes it is the largest opportunity cost as they could be doing so many other things in those 10 years.


Nansi 8:35

Yeah, they can join VC firm or have their own fun. Can Angel invest or just read books all the time and post on Linkedin. [chuckles] So Siddhartha, like you got into Prime insurers, and you got into AWS and during that time also you were investing — putting small cheques — then you joined. Then you started investing through syndicate. At what point in time you decided to only invest in SaaS companies?


Siddhartha 8:57

I think after a few companies, I was getting inbound. So it was clear, right? From my own experience building a b2b SaaS company, which I never knew it was SaaS then. And then the second part of it was building a consumer company called Babygogo. I always hated building a consumer company, because you’re always burning money to get users and those users were not paying you.


Nansi 9:13

But maybe you didn’t have the experience required to build a consumer company? You had the experience to build a b2b company, but you didn’t have the experience required to build a consumer company. That is why you hated building?


Siddhartha 9:25

I gave three years to building a SaaS company and two years to building a consumer company. In those two years of building the consumer side of the business, I always felt that ‘why are we spending so much money to acquire users who are not even paying to user service, right?’. And the narrative we gave ourselves and our investors, that you spend so much money in the beginning that ultimately in a long period of time when you have lakhs and millions of users it will become profitable but it never happens.


Nansi 9:46

Just a simple insight that in SaaS companies, before the money goes, it first comes in. (SPEAKS HINDI)


Siddhartha 9:50

I think revenue was very important for them… for me sorry. I really want to be part of those businesses which make revenue and the other kinds of businesses that make revenue which spend is d2c businesses, like direct-to-consumer brands. But in case of brands, the cost of acquisition is again so much to acquire a consumer, you’ll never know that this consumer will come again back or not without spending money on ads. So it was very clear that enterprises or companies that pay for software will keep on paying for that software till the software is useful.


Nansi 10:16

And I think Siddhartha is one of those, most happy people right now in the startup ecosystem, where a lot of people aren’t getting funding, but it’s relatively easy to raise funds for SaaS companies. (SPEAKS HINDI) [laughs]


Siddhartha 10:25

Yeah it’s relatively easy to raise for SaaS companies. For our portfolio companies, right, we started focusing on SaaS four years back when everybody said that SaaS is not yet there in India, or India is not a market for SaaS. And people still say that, right? India, there are only a few examples of SaaS like FreshWorks and Zoho, but I think if you keep on getting large chunks of revenue globally, you will ultimately build a large company.


Nansi 10:44

And now you have worked with so many established second time; I’m talking about the founders who are teaching you in a way, like Vijay from Atomicwork and through the podcast also, we are getting to interact with founders like Whatfix founders Khadim and Vara. We got to interact with them. What’s your learning from them apart from your own learning you had before building this SaaS fund?


Siddhartha 11:08

These founders are you know, first of all trying to build for extremely large enterprises; enterprises worth hundreds of billions of dollars. And then, what they’re trying to build is solve a unique problem that this enterprises is facing right now and will continue to face for the next 10 years. For example, Vijay is building for employee experience, because everybody knows that employee experience even when I was at AWS is broken, right? I had to file tickets at 10 places to get one thing resolved. Similarly, what Khadim is doing is making training simpler on Salesforce. Salesforce, employee and enterprises use day in and day out.


Nansi 11:38

So the biggest insight you got from founders like Khadim, Vara and Vijay is building for large enterprises?


Siddhartha 11:45

Building for large enterprises and charge them high because enterprises don’t care about how much they pay.


Nansi 11:49

Just to give our audience a reference about what we’re talking about… Why don’t you share, like after investing through syndicate, how we built fund one.


Siddhartha 11:59

We invested in around seven to eight companies and they were mostly SaaS like Airmeet, inFeedo, Rocketium, Affable through syndicate and then into 2021, we build fund one, which was very small like $2 million fund. Thesis there was for every company; don’t have to go out and ask for money for every company from LPs, right? We proved I think our mettle in fund one by being part of companies like SpotDraft, CloudSEK, 1DigitalStack and Metadome and several other companies. What we said to LPs is, when we went against the market next year, that we are building a $10 million fund, and we will rinse and repeat what we did being part of more companies like SpotDraft. I think Shashank is a great founder, so a real privilege to be part of his journey. So I think finding those companies where you think that you are the lesser one, right? Coming to our relationship, it’s always like finding a great husband and wife that you are the lesser one and so you need to behave better. [unintelligible][chuckles]


Nansi 12:44

Through the syndicate, after investing we made fund one which was a really small fund, but after raising money for fund one, we got this validation that we are capable for much more, and we can raise a bigger round. We can invest in better companies; we had a good network of people who could put money in fund two. And the best thing about fund two apart from the money we raised is the IC we have built so Siddhartha tell our audience like what is IC and how does it happen?


Siddhartha 13:14

In fund one, I was the only decision maker so I had biases, right? I would agree that. It can be fear of missing out. It can be a founder trying to be larger than himself or herself. A lot of fear plays when you are investing alone, right? Because It’s you versus you only. You don’t have any other feedback, right? And even if you reach out to a few people who are your help, could help you/could advise you, there is no process to the madness, right? You can’t reach out to the same set of person who is advising you for every company. So in the fund two I was clear that, right, my biases shouldn’t come in decision-making. That’s why you know, I need a team partner which are better than me and partners who have more operating experience. So I met Kshitij through podcast and that was I think one of the best moments in my professional life.


Nansi 13:53

I think you have set so many examples for people who are starting podcasts because you have shown what kind of massive opportunities you can get from podcasting. Like we had no idea that one day we will set up a fund — a SaaS-focused fund — or we will have this kind of quality IC or we will have this kind of office. It’s all started with a podcast.


Siddhartha 14:14

I interviewed Kshitij. After the interview, Kshitij said to me that he would like to be a part of whatever I’m doing so I said ‘I had raised fund one last time; I will raise fund two next year.’ So he said he’d like to be in and be in the front. He first said that. Met him again, right? Once he had committed the capital as an LP, I asked him to join as a partner. Whatever time he can give because he’s also running a full time company, right, which takes away his weekdays and over a period of time, then Sudarshan joined because Sudarshan was also an LP in fund one. I think in fund two, I started spending more time with him and I invited Sudarshan for the part of IC, right, so it became me, Sudarshan and Kshitij. And over a period of time we started respecting each other’s opinion, each other’s judgment. That’s how it became but I think when I asked Kshitij to be a partner and give some time and Sudarshan also running a full-time company and he also started giving weekends so this became a process for us, right. So every Saturday we evaluate whatever the companies I have met throughout the month, whichever companies I feel confident about. I bring them to our Investment Committee, which is IC and there, you know, Kshitij and Sudarshan challenged me on my own beliefs and biases so that we can make the best decision from the front and both are operators with much more experience and have built much larger companies that I had built.


Nansi 15:18

So what’s that one thing that you were biased about and you are no more, like that belief is broken now?


Siddhartha 15:24

There was something like if a tier one we see is investing, then my opinion would get bias like if Sequoia is investing, can I be part of that company? Now I realize I may not know that Sequoia will also have like, only 10% success rate. So that company, which I’m investing in might be among the 90% of the Sequoia’s company that might fail. So those were the biases that got broken out over a period of time, right, when Kshitij and Sudarshan came in.


Nansi 15:45

So there are now companies where big VCs are coming… So you said that you had this bias that if a big VCs coming, you would invest. It’s no more a case, right?


Siddhartha 15:57

It’s no more a case. It may be a case in few instances in fund one but never in fund two. We have past companies in fund two where a large VC is also there, but we always realize that it has to be in a very independent call, irrespective of who is coming in or not.


Nansi 16:08

So as you know Siddhartha that there is one more reason why we are doing this podcast, including all our team members and listeners. Everyone is like Nansi should also start hosting. So I have prepared few questions. So Siddhartha, you have a special space in your heart for second-time founders. So tell me, what do you really like about them?


Siddhartha 16:30

So as I said in investing, or even, right, in a relationship, you look for a partner who is better than you, right? So that you can look up to them constantly. So in case of second-time founders, you can constantly look up to them, because previously, what they have built and the experience that they have gained is an unequal relationship. Even if you are on the other lower pedestal, right? So you’re always in awe of what they’re building; you’re always listening to them. That’s a space I like to be in: In a state of constant learning, rather than giving my opinion; do this, do that.


Nansi 16:56

Then why would they raise money from you if they think that you are still learning and they will be teaching you so there is nothing they get?


Siddhartha 17:03

Because they don’t take money from me, right? They take money from the partnership, which is me, Kshitij and Sudarshan and Kshitij is like a super second-time founder.


Nansi 17:10

Kshitij and Sudarshan saved you. [chuckles]


Siddhartha 17:10

[laughing] I think go-to-market is a skill that I learned at Amazon, even previous that while selling to doctors going door-to-door and I have gone to like hundreds or maybe 1000 doctors. So I understand the psychology of selling. Taking a company to 1 million ARR/ 10 million ARR, I think I have that insight. They take money at least for this insight, I believe.


Nansi 17:11

So Siddhartha, we discussed that why founders should raise money from you. And there are so many aspiring founders and early-stage founders listening to this podcast. What kind of investors, being an early-stage founder, you should raise money from? So what you should look for in your investor?


Siddhartha 17:45

I think first is when you start a call as a first-time founder and it’s your first call. See if the investor is introducing themselves first or not. And if the investor ask you to start pitching, then it is a big no, right? He’s always sitting on a higher pedestal and you’re on a lower pedestal. At least you want to be on equal pedestal when you’re pitching to an investor. If the investor is doing that, that means he’s trying to just cool down the air so that you as a founder can be more friendly and take it as a discussion between equals.


Nansi 18:10

I have noticed because we have invested in 35 SaaS companies and there is this weird thing I noticed that why do SaaS companies have these complex names?


Siddhartha 18:21

[chuckles] I think because they don’t invest so much time because they’re not selling to consumer so it’s just that they’re selling to enterprises.


Nansi 18:27

Do you think they can improve this part?


Siddhartha 18:29

I absolutely think that they can improve, right? They can spend four to five more months.


Nansi 18:32

When we see very thoughtful, meaningful names from D2C brands like Mamaearth there is this meaning and there are many other D2C brands like Bombay shaving company, many other names. This is the only reason…


Siddhartha 18:45

This is the only reason. The best SaaS company in the world have a name: Snowflake. SaaS founders sitting in India, they’re trying to keep international names because they’re selling to American audience or global audience.


Nansi 18:56

Apart from these complex names, because we have worked with many companies… So I got a chance to scroll everyone’s website and our competitors, like very complex websites they have, like, and I think this is the reason why I really, really liked SpotDraft, because they are solving a problem anyone can understand, like someone like me can understand. And the website is not that complex. The way Shashank is building in public, like teaching everyone, telling everyone like what I’m doing, what kind of clients we have, all the product updates, and the fundraising updates the way they shared. It’s really nice. Like, I think for SaaS companies, do you think it’s a good thing to teach people because like, we hosted Whatfix founders. I think this was the first time many founders who have been listening to our podcast got back to us, that this was a really nice episode. And we didn’t expect that because Whatfix is a known company, but mostly we were just discussing SaaS. There was storytelling, but most of the time we were just discussing SaaS, so I had this expectation that maybe we are not going to get good traction on that podcast episode. Still so many people liked that episode and we got a comment on that episode that ‘I couldn’t understand anything.’, so I was little disappointed because that was the first comment we got so I was like it was a really nice episode but I think not many people are going to get. (SPEAKS HINDI) But then we started getting comments from our founders, but I think the way Shashank is building is also helping people get SaaS, because there was a time in India where people were saying that India doesn’t have SaaS. But I think we have got here thanks to people like Freshworks founder and Zoho because they have been talking about it. They were not just building, they were also talking about it. The way Sridhar tweets about the updates or the kind of work they are doing with Zoho, outside Zoho and the kind of initiatives Freshworks is taking like we have this event, SaaSBOOMi. It’s an event to celebrate SaaS in India. What kind of founders we have, what kind of efforts they have been putting to build the SaaS ecosystem in India. I think it’s really necessary to tell everyone what is taking place with SaaS outside Bangalore, Mumbai, Delhi in a place like Chennai. Many SaaS founders came together in SaaSBOOMi. (SPEAKS HINDI) There was so much buzz on social media that people who are not from SaaS ecosystem… they were also discussing. So I think we should give credit to people like Shashank that they are building in public and telling everyone so it’s not just benefitting SpotDraft but it is also benefiting SaaS startups ecosystem in India. People are getting to know because customers know what they want. So they are going to buy from you but investors four years back/five years back not everyone was bullish on SaaS. Now people are getting to know companies like Postman. In general, like I know about Postman and Hasura. I think thanks to these founders who are educating everyone that what is SaaS, what they’re building and what’s their vision, how far SaaS has come in India, what happens when we go to the US, what are we selling, the CTO and founder both go. (SPEAKS HINDI). There are so many discussions which were happening inside closed doors. I think now people are discussing all of those things on social media, thanks to people like Shashank.


Siddhartha 22:07

Yeah I think definitely if you try to normalize, make it less complex for everyone, it doesn’t just help you but it helps the ecosystem.


Nansi 22:14

I think a lot of time I visit these websites and I’m like, I don’t understand a word. So I think they should make it a little easy for people to understand, like, at least I should understand what kind of problem you’re solving. If I have no idea after reading your whole website, then what’s the point? Yeah, what’s your favorite SaaS company? Which one is your most favorite outside our portfolio?


Siddhartha 22:39

India, I would say it would be Whatfix since I can get to know Khadim very closely. And I think Khadim is building the next Freshworks or Whatfix might become bigger than Freshworks in next 10 years. Simple reason is Khadim has a very unique insight on what enterprises want and he knows how to serve it.


Nansi 22:50

Now everyone knows that you are a big time reader and we have three, four bookshelves filled with so many books, and you’re a big Charlie Munger fan. Any quote you want to share?


Siddhartha 23:00

I think Charlie Munger says ‘people are trying to find magic and things that work. But ultimately, people who will win over the long term is people who don’t do stupid things, who avoid stupid things. Just avoiding stupid things can make you extremely wealthy over a long period of time.’


Nansi 23:13

Then how do you avoid stupid things?


Siddhartha 23:15

By knowing that, you know, being aware of your biases. I shared like I had a few biases, right? Being aware of biases helps and reading a lot and knowing that what doesn’t work. You don’t have to learn only from your mistakes. You can learn from other mistakes as well.


Nansi 23:26

I think here tools like ChatGPT is helping a lot because you are being with someone who is more smart than you.


Siddhartha 23:34

I think why ChatGPT is so hot is, let’s go back to why Google became so hot. Sitting with ChatGPT is sitting with a friend who knows everything and you’re okay with that friend being 90% accurate, 10% of the time stuttering might tell lies unknowingly. So is ChatGPT. When I was searching, right, when Google came back, I was able to put anything in my mind in Google and Google was able to get me 10 results regarding the thing that I’ve wanted to know. Now ChatGPT has made it more simplified. ChatGPT will give me summary of whatever I need to know in a human language. So it has reduced the time that I spent on Google almost by 10x.


Nansi 23:35

It’s like live interaction.


Siddhartha 23:35

Yeah live interaction with a person who knows anything


Nansi 23:51

With Google, you’re just asking and asking and here you’re just interacting.


Siddhartha 24:12

Yeah. Ask ChatGPT: How do you make your social media posts better? You also type your social media post and ask ChatGPT to make it better in the way you want it to. It’s like having a friend who knows everything and having an assistant also who knows what to do, if you tell the right thing to do.


Nansi 24:25

I think we had a good discussion on investing. So you tell us in the comment if you like this conversation, so we will try to be more active. Also, suggest us topics. What kind of discussions we can have whenever we are together next time and we are also working on something exciting. Maybe in the next podcast, we will be discussing that also. So till then, thanks so much for listening to us and any guests if you want to bring onto the podcast, you can mention them in the comments. We always, always listen to you all. Thank you!


Siddhartha 24:25

Thank you!


Transcribed by


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