Siddhartha Ahluwalia 2:22

Hi, this is Siddhartha Ahluwalia, your host today at Neon Show and also co-founder of Neon Fund, a fund that invests in the most enterprising SaaS companies built out of India for the globe.

Today I have with me Harish Bhat. Harish, welcome to Neon Show again.

Harish Bhat 2:36

Thank you Siddhartha, pleasure to be on your show once again.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 2:39

Harish, you are the ex-brand custodian of Tata Group, just a refresher for our audience. And your first book that you released, Jamshedji Tata, right? That you came on Neon Show four months ago to share more about the book and the life of Jamshedji Tata.

The podcast has gathered more than 150,000 views on the main podcast and 7.7 million views on the shorts. So total of 8 million people on YouTube, you know, have seen the journey of Jamshedji Tata through you.

Harish Bhat 3:13

Wow Siddhartha, those are astonishing numbers. I’m really happy that the story of the Tata Group, the history of the Tata Group and Jamshedji Tata’s ideas has gone out to more than 8 million people through the Neon Show podcast.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 3:28

We are very grateful to be the platform of, you know, where the India story could come out.

Harish Bhat 3:34

But thank you, thank you so much for having me on the show because the history of the Tata Group is not just the history of the Tata Group, it is the history of Indian industry.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 3:42

Yes, and you know, the book has been called a bestseller, Jamshedji Tata book. So first of all, big, big congratulations.

Harish Bhat 3:50

Thank you Siddhartha. So what I have done today is I’ve brought a copy of the book for you. You know, this is the book, Jamshedji Tata, Powerful Learnings for Corporate Success.

Here’s the book and I hope you enjoy it thoroughly.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 4:01

I enjoyed reading it on Kindle while preparing for our first episode. So definitely, I’m going to enjoy the physical copy now.

Harish Bhat 4:07

Thank you.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 4:10

And before we begin the new year, you’re right. This year, we mourn the loss of Ratan Tata, one of the most iconic figures in India. Not just as a business person, but as a human being also, the kindness that he displayed throughout India, right.

He was born on 28th December, just three days before we shot a podcast on 31st December. And he left for heavenly abode on 9th October, I think. It’s a terrible loss for entire India.

But you know, let’s celebrate his life through this podcast.

Harish Bhat 4:47

Yes, Siddhartha. So we should celebrate his life because it was such a rich life. So well lived, you know, in multiple dimensions.

Ratan Tata was a visionary. He was a pioneer. He was a business leader.

He was a philanthropist. He was a technocrat. He was a lover of dogs.

He was one of the finest people we have known who has inspired us for so many, so many years. So I think it’s only right that we celebrate his life through this podcast.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 5:16

Absolutely.

And you know, today’s podcast, we’ll try to imbibe what inspiration that a youth or audience can imbibe for him in 2025 as we begin the new year.

Harish Bhat 5:29

Absolutely right. You know, in the new year, I think all of us look for sources of inspiration, for sources of learning. And Ratan Tata’s life is such a rich source of learning for all of us.

I’m very, very happy to be here and talk about some of the anecdotes and stories from his life.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 5:45

So let’s talk about, you know, how did you meet Ratan Tata for the first time, and your own interactions with him, and some of the reflections of the kind person he was.

Harish Bhat 5:58

So, you know, I’ve never worked very closely with Ratan Tata. But I joined the Tata group in 1987.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 6:07

You used to sell Tata tea.

Harish Bhat 6:08

Yes, my first assignment was in tea. I used to sell Tata tea. But I joined the Tata group in 1987.

And the final interview, you know, I joined the Tata administrative service. And my final interview was in Bombay House, the corporate headquarters of the Tata Group. So the interview was in the fourth floor, which is the top floor of Bombay House in the boardroom.

And I was interviewed by seven or eight directors. I was, of course, nervous. I was a young 25-year-old boy, who knows whether I would get selected or not.

But on the interview committee was Ratan Tata. Okay. Along with other directors.

At that time, he was not yet the chairman of Tata Sons. This was 1987 when JRD Tata was still the chairman. But Ratan Tata was on the interview committee.

And what I remember of that interview is that he did his best to make me comfortable. I think he understood I was a little nervous. He did his best to make me comfortable before the interview committee started asking me many questions.

Thereafter, over the course of my 37-year career with the Tata group, I’ve interacted with him on many occasions. And, you know, if I were to look at the imagery that comes out of those occasions and what I carried back with me, he was very graceful in his interactions. All the time I would spend with him on some topic or the other, he would listen very carefully.

And then he would say a few words, but they would be a very few thoughtful words that he would say. I remember him as a person who made you very comfortable, who treated you with a lot of dignity and grace, and who always spoke very thoughtfully. I’ve heard him, of course, at many Tata group events.

We used to have the annual group meets where I used to be invited. And he used to brief us on how the group has done and what the Tata group is planning for the next year. There again, if anything, he would be a little understated, but he would lay out his thesis very, very clearly.

There was clarity of thought and there was inspiration in what he spoke.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 8:17

I would love to hear some of the stories, you know, that of course Ratan Tata embodied, he carried forward and now we remember him dearly. So you have narrated a story in your book about how Ratan Tata created India’s first fully indigenous car, Tata Indigo. Can you please share?

Harish Bhat 8:34

Of course, this is such a proud story for India. This was in the mid 1990s, Ratan Tata stood up at an automobile forum and said, why can’t we create our own car in India? Every developed country in this world, whether it’s the United States, whether it’s the UK, whether it is Italy, whether it’s France, whether it’s Korea, whether it’s Japan, have their own cars.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 9:00

And before that moment, India didn’t have a car of its own?

Harish Bhat 9:03

India had cars like the Maruti Suzuki and the Hyundai on the roads, but the Maruti Suzuki was designed in Japan and was being assembled in India, and the Hyundai was designed in Korea and was being assembled, manufactured in India. But a car which was designed for an Indian family, designed for Indian roads, made virtually completely of indigenous Indian parts.

India did not have a car that it could call its own. So, when Ratan Tata stood up and spoke and said, why can’t India create its own car? And remember, by then, India already had a satellite in space.

Aryabhata was already in space. So, when he said this, many people were skeptical. Many people said that you require a lot of technological prowess to create your own car, and India does not have the technological prowess.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 9:50

This was which year again?

Harish Bhat 9:51

This was in the 1990s, maybe 95 or 96, to the best of my memory.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 9:55

When the economy had opened up?

Harish Bhat 9:56

The economy had already opened up. In fact, Ratan Tata’s tenure as chairman of Tata Sons coincided with the liberalization of the Indian economy. Because the rest of the industry was skeptical, he actually called for the industry to come together to make India’s first own car.

But when the rest of the industry was skeptical, he said we will go it alone in the Tata group. And Tata Motors, or Telco as it was called then, took the risk and took on the project of making India’s first indigenous car. Ratan Tata’s vision for the car was very clear.

He said, can we have a car which is as large as the Ambassador, as fuel efficient as the Maruti’s 800, and as stylish as the Zen? I don’t know if you remember the Zen car from those days. That was his vision for the car.

So, his engineers at the Engineering Research Center of Tata Motors in Pune, in collaboration with the IDO of Turin, designed the Tata Indica. And what a fantastic design it was. You know, it was a design the likes of which had never been seen on Indian roads at that time, in the late 1990s.

I’m told that people were stunned when they saw the design. It was a very spacious car. Very, very spacious car.

Because in India, we do need spacious cars for our families as we travel. And then he had to manufacture the car. So, to manufacture the car, you need a plant which is fairly expensive.

A car manufacturing plant, even in those days, could cost upwards of $2 billion, which Tata Motors could not afford at that time. But this challenge did not put back Mr. Ratan Tata and his leadership team. They scoured around the world.

They found a disused Nissan plant in Australia, which was being run for only 15 minutes a day to keep it going. They were able to negotiate and buy that plant at one-fifth to one-sixth the cost of a new plant. Brick by brick, they disassembled that plant in Australia, brought it back to Pune and assembled it in Pune.

And that is how the manufacturing plant for the Tata Indica was created. Now, they had to train people to make the Indica. Tata Motors, until then, was a truck manufacturing company, primarily.

It was not into car manufacturing at all. I remember going to the Tata Motors plant at Pune and speaking to the first few people who had assembled the Tata Indica. These were all school-educated people from the hinterlands of Pune who had been brought into the plant.

Even today, when they speak about it, they have tears of joy in their eyes. They say, you know, we assembled India’s first car. It apparently took them eight days to assemble the first Tata Indica.

These days, if you go to a Tata Motors plant, you will find a new car coming out every 40 or 50 seconds from the assembly line. But this was the first car that was made, eight days to assemble. And … sorry, go ahead.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 12:51

I was asking, when was the first car out in the market?

Harish Bhat 12:54

So 1998 was when the Tata Indica was launched. It was driven out proudly by Mr. Ratan Tata from the Pune plant. It was launched in the market. Initially, it had some quality issues with it. Even now, you know, people squirm when they are reminded about those quality issues.

But those quality issues were fixed very quickly. Mr. Tata and his team visited distributors, visited the markets, understood what the issues were. Over the next year, those issues were fixed.

And eventually, the Tata Indica was relaunched as Tata Indica V2. It went on to become the fastest selling car on the face of India in the early 2000s. There are about 3,000 discrete parts which go into a car.

And when the Tata Indica was launched, 97% of these parts were created indigenously. So imagine the ancillary industry that it gave rise to. Imagine the engineering excellence which the actual making of a car in India brought.

And, you know, people have later asked Mr. Ratan Tata, what gave you the courage to make India’s first car, the Tata Indica? And Ratan Tata has said that his courage came from his trust in the young engineers of Telco, Tata Motors. And he has also said that he wanted to do something which would be inspiring for young India, which would show young India that it’s often possible to do the impossible.

And Ratan Tata has actually said, you know, history may say it succeeded or history may say that it failed. But we thought of it and we did it. We made India’s first car.

So it was a very proud moment. And I believe, as a business historian, when I have studied the story, I believe that the root of Mr. Ratan Tata’s desire to do this was to do what was right for the country. It was a matter of national pride to have a car that we could call our own.

And Ratan Tata led this effort to make this possible through the Tata Indica.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 14:57

I remember it was also priced very effectively. It was like the two lakhs or two and a half lakhs.

Harish Bhat 15:02

Yeah, I was here. I was working in Tata T in Bangalore in those days. And I had a silver colored Tata Indica that I have driven for many years.

And it was a beautiful car, you know, very safe to drive. Very spacious. It gave me no trouble at all during those years when I drove it all the way from Jayanagara to Yeshwanthpur and back.

And it was also a matter of great pride. I remember in those initial days, a lot of people would be on the roads looking at the Indica because it looked so different from the other cars which were on the road. Today, of course, you know, Tata Motors makes some fantastic cars.

You have cars like the Tata Nexon, the Tata Punch, the Tata Harrier. In fact, this year, the Tata Punch in 2024 is the highest-selling car of any model within the country. And that makes us very proud in the Tata group.

But this is the origin of where that came from, the Tata Indica, India’s first ever car. What a pioneering effort it was.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 15:59

And if you see the history, it’s just been 26 years.

Harish Bhat 16:02

That is true. It’s just been that period of time, about quarter of a century.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 16:06

And most car companies globally are like almost 100 years old.

Harish Bhat 16:09

They would be, they would be. I think Tata Motors has made phenomenal progress. And Mr. Ratan Tata’s early leadership in creating India’s first indigenous car, I think was very, very inspirational for the entire country. It also created an automobile ecosystem in the western part of India.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 16:29

Ratan Tata dedicated last few years of his life to health care. Can you tell us more about the fight against cancer that he led?

Harish Bhat 16:37

So Ratan Tata did dedicate his final years to health care. The first Tata Cancer Hospital came up way back in 1941, which was the Tata Memorial Hospital in Parel. And that has been around over the last several decades.

But in 2012, under Ratan Tata’s leadership, the Tata Medical Center and Cancer Research Institute was created at Kolkata, at Rajarhat in Kolkata. And this was created because the northeast and the eastern part of the country did not have a major well-equipped hospital for cancer patients. And that hospital has done phenomenal work over the last 12 years since it was established.

Thereafter, the Tata Trust, led by Ratan Tata, undertook a complete cancer care program. Starting 2017, I think there was a comprehensive cancer care program put in place. Even as we speak, 20 cancer hospitals across seven states are coming up under the auspices of the Tata Trust, who work hand-in-hand with state governments to create these hospitals.

You will recall that just two years back in Assam, seven cancer care hospitals were inaugurated by Prime Minister Narendra Modi. And Mr. Ratan Tata was there himself. And this was a collaboration between the state government of Assam and the Tata Trust.

So cancer care has been a flagship program of the Tata Trust, led by Ratan Tata. And I think it has played a key role in alleviating the suffering of cancer patients across the country. You know, when cancer strikes, it’s perhaps the worst thing that can happen to a family.

There is a lot of distress and a lot of pain. And making cancer care affordable in the country is a dream and a purpose that Ratan Tata pursued passionately until the end of his days.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 18:37

That’s, that’s very emotional that, you know, he dedicated a lot of his life towards elevating the suffering of poor families which are suffering from cancer.

Harish Bhat 18:52

Yes, I am, am truly inspired by that. And I think this is a contribution which will stand the test of time.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 19:02

And you’ll see the results over decades.

Harish Bhat 19:04

The results will be seen over decades. But most importantly, you know, he was in many ways a defender of the defenseless. And he wanted to do his best for people who were in need.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 19:16

So there’s also, you know, the stories of what went wrong and how he reacted. I think the true test of leadership is how do you react when things go wrong. And I would like to bring out the story of Tata Finance and how Mr. Ratan Tata responded to the lapse holds many lessons for us. What happened actually in Tata Finance?

Harish Bhat 19:34

Yeah, so thank you, Siddhartha, for asking me this question. Because I think the character of a person and the character of an industrial house come out when things go wrong and not necessarily when things are always right. And the story of Tata Finance is very, very educative.

So let me narrate this story to you. You know, one fine day, I think this was 2000, the year 2000, an anonymous letter lands up in the corporate headquarters of the Tata Group, Bombay House. And that letter was written by a person who calls himself Shankar Sharma.

We have never found out who that person was, but he called himself Shankar Sharma. And the letter says there has been a fraud that has been committed in Tata Finance. Mr. Ratan Tata was the chairman of the group at that time. And this must have come as a shock to him. This must have come as a shock to him and to his leadership team. So an audit is immediately announced.

The auditors go there and they come back with their findings that in fact, a fraud has been committed. What has happened is Tata Finance used to be a listed financial services company. It used to get deposits from small investors.

So people like you and me would invest our life savings in deposits with Tata Finance. And then it would give loans to people to buy various things. But some of the leadership of Tata Finance at that time had invested some of these, a large part of these, I mean, a large sum in investments of a dubious nature.

And when those had collapsed, it had left behind a 500 crore hole in the balance sheet of the company. Now, this was a listed company in which the Tata Group, Tata Sons owned, was the promoter and owned some equity. But it was a listed company also owned by other shareholders.

So this left a large hole in Tata Finance. And the reaction of Mr. Ratan Tata and his leadership at that time was what was exemplary. And I’ve spoken to directors and senior people who have interacted with Mr. Ratan Tata at that time. And what they have said is that Mr. Ratan Tata called them in and he had only two pieces of advice for them. First, the interests of every single depositor should be protected. In fact, I am told that a shareholder stood up at an annual general meeting of another Tata company and asked Mr. Tata, what will happen to our deposits?

What will happen to the deposits that I have put into Tata Finance? And apparently, Ratan Tata stood up immediately and told him, your deposits will be safe, every depositor’s funds will be safe. And he advised his leadership team that every depositor’s fund should be safe.

Therefore, within the next few days, Tata Sons injected more than 600 crores into that company, into Tata Finance, through cash and through corporate guarantees. Now, Tata Sons was not obliged to do that by law, because they were only one of the shareholders of Tata Finance. But Mr. Ratan Tata felt that was morally the correct thing to do. And therefore, every depositor’s interests were protected. In fact, I’ve been told by people who worked in Tata Finance at that time, and this was the age before UPI and before digital money, I was told by people who have worked in Tata Finance at that time, that the company actually kept a helicopter on standby to fly the funds to smaller towns if required. If at all people came asking for their money.

Eventually, that helicopter was never used. There was no run on the company, because people trusted in what Mr. Ratan Tata and the Tata Group said. In fact, the Tata Group published an advertisement in the newspapers saying that the funds of depositors will be safe.

The second thing that Ratan Tata told his leadership team is, he said, ensure that the guilty, however senior they are, are brought to book and given due punishment under law. And the Tata Group through SEBI, through the courts of law, filed the required cases, and eventually the guilty were punished, and in fact, put into prison as well. So to me, this was a demonstration of both trust and transparency.

The first thing is the reassurance to depositors that we will do what is right, even if it means exceeding our legal obligations. And the second thing is, we will deal transparently with this. We will not brush this under the carpet.

Mr. Ratan Tata’s response, therefore, I think, particularly in a shocking incident like this, was exemplary, and it was very inspiring for me to hear this. When I was a young manager in Tata Tea in those days, and I used to have a fixed deposit myself in Tata Finance, small amount, but I remember hearing this, and I kept my fixed deposit there, and I was reassured that it would be safe, which it was. So this is the story of Tata Finance.

You know, my co-author, Mr. R. Gopalakrishnan once told me, he said, Harish, corporations are made of human beings. No corporation is perfect.

There will be errors from time to time. But what marks out the character of corporations is how companies react to those errors. And it’s important never to brush errors under the carpet.

It’s important to face up to them transparently and do what is right. And I do believe in Mr. Ratan Tata’s life, one of the key drivers in his life was to always do the right thing, even if it meant exceeding legal obligations. And that’s one of the lessons I have learned.

And in my own way, I try to do that in my own life as well.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 25:10

I want to talk about a very important time for India when it shook India. What happened during the 26-11 terrorist attack on Taj? We have seen many pictures of Mr. Ratan Tata on the pavement outside the Taj during those terrible days, not on the next day. I think he was there as soon as he was given permission.

Harish Bhat 25:32

Yeah, so, so you know, it was one of the most tragic days that we faced in India. So on 26-11-2008, terrorists attacked the Taj Hotel. They also attacked some other locations in Bombay, the Trident, the VT station and a few other locations.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 25:52

Leopold Cafe.

Harish Bhat 25:52

Leopold Cafe and so forth. I’m told the information that the Taj has been attacked reached Mr. Ratan Tata through the telephone operator of the Taj. And within an hour, he was there.

Of course, the police would not permit him entry into the Taj. But he stood outside on the pavement for around three days. For around three days to express solidarity with the people inside.

He felt helpless. I’ve seen a note written by R. K. Krishna Kumar, who at that time was the vice chairman of the Indian Hotels Company. And he says Mr. Tata felt helpless, but he wanted to demonstrate solidarity with the people inside the hotel. And, you know, after the terrorists were killed, I think it was the second or the third day after they were killed, Mr. Ratan Tata entered the hotel. And then he stood on the steps of the hotel. And he addressed media.

I remember the famous words he said to media. We have been hurt, but we cannot be knocked down. And then he also said that he would establish an institution to provide relief and rehabilitation to the families of people who have been killed in the terror attacks and also to the injured.

Not just the people at the Taj Hotel, but people across Mumbai, including common people, including people from the police, from the commando force, the employees, everyone. It was a huge commitment to make. And he followed it up day by day, made sure that the Taj Public Welfare Trust was established within 15 days.

And over the last several years, that trust has been providing exemplary relief and rehabilitation service. It has brought back hundreds of families back on their feet, rediscovering and living their lives. Also, what Mr. Ratan Tata did during that time, he visited the injured in the hospital at Bombay Hospital. He made sure that he personally met the families of every person who had lost his or her life in the Taj. And spent time with them, reassuring them. So, you know, care and compassion have always been, I think, at the center of Mr. Ratan Tata’s life. I’ve seen this in many other incidents, but during 26-11, this was at the center of his mind. And he made sure that all those people who were impacted at the Taj were reassured, were taken care of, and were given the required support to live out the rest of their lives.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 28:36

I’m really moved by this gesture of Mr. Tata because it was a decade-long commitment.

Harish Bhat 28:42

Yes, it is a lifelong commitment for those people. But again, you know, he thought it was the right thing to do. And he thought it was the right thing to do to stand by people when something like this happens.

And he did his best, I would believe.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 28:59

One more thing that I want to talk about is, he always treated people with grace and dignity, right? It was always part of his personality. Can you give more examples of it?

Harish Bhat 29:11

Yeah, so let me share a story with you, which one of my colleagues in the Tata group was sharing with me recently. He’s a senior person in the Tata group. And I think earlier this year, a few months before Mr. Ratan Tata passed away, he had gone to visit Mr. Ratan Tata at his house. And they spent the first 15-20 minutes talking to each other. Now, you must remember, Mr. Ratan Tata was already 87 years of age. He had some difficulty walking.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 29:40

His health was ailing in the last few years.

Harish Bhat 29:42

His health was not the best. But after they finished their conversation, my colleague stood up and said, thank you, sir, I will now leave.

And apparently, Mr. Ratan Tata came all the way to the door to see him off. And then asked him, do you have a car? Or should I arrange one? And my colleague told him, no, I have a car and then he continued staying at the door till my colleague got into the car and drove off to see him off. I’m now as an 87-year-old person and as the chairman emeritus of the group, he did not need to do that. But for him, that was grace and human dignity.

In fact, I’ve been told that right from his early days as chairman of the group, he always insisted that people be treated with dignity. For him, giving the person on the other side of the table or the person he was meeting the required dignity was very, very important. I think that was a defining characteristic of Mr. Tata. Whether he was meeting the chairman of another company, whether he was meeting a junior employee or a senior employee, he displayed the same grace and dignity towards all of them. And that I think is a very important thing in life, Siddhartha. You know, you treat a human being like a human being.

You have respect for them. You have respect for, respect for the people they are and not only for the positions that they hold. I remember this in my interactions with Mr. Ratan Tata as well. He would be very graceful. He would invite me to sit down. He would listen to what I said.

He would listen very carefully to what I said, which is also a mark of respect for the other person. So, this was a very, very important part of his life.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 31:27

Can you share the incidents where he gifted a note to you?

Harish Bhat 31:33

Yeah. So, you know, this was in the mid-2000s, Siddhartha, and I was moving from one Tata assignment to the next. And I remember that there was a small event at the Taj President.

It was an event with many people. I think it was celebrating some particular occasion in that company. And then he called me aside and said, Harish, here is a book that we would like to gift you.

And it was a book called The Horizons, which was a hundred-year history of the Tata group. And then he took out the book. And on the book he wrote a personal note himself, you know, wishing me all the very best on my next assignment with the Tata group and also saying that it was a pleasure working with me as a colleague.

He need not have done that. Okay. He need not have done that.

It’s a note which the book and the note I have preserved very carefully until now. And I go back to it and take inspiration that these are the small touches which really matter, matter to people. And every time I want to remind myself of the kind of person he was, I open that copy of The Horizons, which is in my study at home just now.

And I look at the note that he wrote there.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 32:52

This is so amazing that, you know, he was the chairman of the group then. And you were a very senior manager, but he still addressed it as a privilege to be your colleague.

Harish Bhat 33:03

Yes, it is. You know, he was the chairman of the group. I was an operating manager in the group, but still he called himself a colleague.

I think that’s also an expression of the humility with which he carried himself. You know, if there were three things that define Mr. Ratan Tata, I would say they were courage, integrity and humility. You know, courage was expressed in, say, the making of the Tata Indica, pioneering venture would have required a lot of guts and courage to do something like that.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 33:35

Courage is also failure, right? Admitting failure. Tata Nano didn’t work out well and he admitted it.

Harish Bhat 33:36

So, courage is also about admitting failure. Absolutely right. So, courage was one aspect of Mr. Tata. The second was integrity. And the Tata finance episode brings out that integrity very clearly. And the third was humility, the way he carried himself as a person.

So, it’s a combination of those three attributes that I think made Mr. Tata the person he was.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 34:01

And one of the things that, you know, our audience would also like to know and I would personally like to know is that who inspired Mr. Ratan Tata because, you know, a man of such stature is built by the people around him.

Harish Bhat 34:15

Yeah, you’re quite right. See, all of us look for people who inspire us in our lives. So, Mr. Ratan Tata has been asked this question and I recollect reading, he has said, of course, that one of the biggest influences on him was Mr. J.R.D. Tata, who was his mentor and advisor and also his predecessor as the chairman of Tata Sons. So, Ratan Tata worked closely with J.R.D. Tata for several years before he became the chairman of the Tata Group. And he has said that J.R.D. Tata left an indelible imprint on his mind. Ratan Tata has also spoken about some others who influenced him.

He has spoken about John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States and the influence that John F. Kennedy had on him when he was a student in the U.S. He has spoken about Dr. Amar Bose of the Bose, you know, music systems and audio systems and how Dr. Amar Bose was a big influence upon him. So, these were some names. And then Ratan Tata has spoken about Jamshedji Tata, the founder of the Tata Group and how the values of Jamshedji Tata have been a deep influence on him. In fact, Mr. Ratan Tata considered himself to be a custodian of those values to take them forward. He wanted to create a group, nurture a group which was true to the ideals of the founder, Jamshedji Tata.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 35:33

And you also have an excerpt, I would, you know, love if you could read out.

Harish Bhat 35:37

Yes, yes.

So, I will read this out. And this excerpt is from The Creation of Wealth, a fantastic book written by R. M. Lala, who was the original historian of the Tata Group. And in the year 2003, Ratan Tata wrote an epilogue to this book. And in one paragraph of that epilogue, he says what kind of a group would he like the Tatas to be.

And here is what he says. He says, what I think all of us would like the Tata Group to be, the predominant business house in India, which amidst fast eroding values, will continue to stand out as being a well-integrated growth-oriented group with market leadership, operating with a high level of integrity, a great value system, and uncompromising in its goal to achieve results without partaking in corruption, bribery, and or political influence.

Look at those words. He says he wants the Tata Group to be a rapidly growing group.

He wants the Tata Group to have market leadership. But he also says that I would like the group to have a very high level of integrity, a great value system, and uncompromising in achieving results without partaking in corruption, bribery, and or political influence. He goes on to say this.

He says, you know, this is the kind of group that I think the Tatas will look like in the future. And if it looks like this, I would believe that I would have achieved the task that I undertook. And that’s a very, very strong statement to make.

He says these were the fundamentals on which our group was built and has grown so successfully. And these are the fundamentals to which we should always adhere to. And during his tenure as chairmanship, he considered himself as a custodian of these values and these principles, and I think went out of his way to protect them.

He was an extraordinary man. You know, he lived a very rich life, full of so many dimensions, but I think he also drove himself very hard for his entire life.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 37:43

Some of the things, you know, his life has impacted many, but it’s also about a small things that a person does. Mr. Tata was very fond of stray dogs and helping them rehabilitate. Tell us about that.

Harish Bhat 37:55

Yes, this is true. Mr. Tata was very fond of dogs. His favorite dog, one of his favorite dogs was a dog called Goa, whom I have seen at Bombay House many times.

But I must narrate to you a story which was there in a LinkedIn post written by our chairman Mr. Chandrasekharan. So apparently, you know, when Mr. Chandrasekaran wanted to renovate Bombay House, the headquarters of Tata Group in 2017, he went up to Mr. Tata and discussed this with him. And Mr. Ratan Tata’s first question to him was, where will the dogs go?

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 38:40

And what was the history of dogs in Bombay House?

Harish Bhat 38:42

I think Mr. Ratan Tata loved dogs. They have been there for a very, very long time.

I’ve seen them at the reception.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 38:48

So they would just roam around in Bombay House?

Harish Bhat 38:50

They would be there near the reception area. So when Mr. Chandrasekharan met him and told him about the renovation of Bombay House that he wanted to do, Mr. Tata’s question to him was, but where will the dogs go? And then Mr. Chandrasekharan told him that in the renovated Bombay House, we will have a kennel that is being built for the dogs. And he goes on to say that when the new Bombay House was renovated and inaugurated, the first place that Mr. Tata went to, to see for himself was the kennel for dogs. And he was very happy the way it came out. So that’s why, you know, Bombay House until today has a kennel for dogs on the ground floor. And sometime if you visit Bombay House, you should come and see that kennel.

It’s a very, very well-equipped kennel.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 39:34

How many dogs at any point of time are there?

Harish Bhat 39:36

I have seen about seven or eight dogs there whenever I have passed by, but I don’t have an exact count of the numbers.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 39:45

What were the things, you know, because every group, business group changes according with time, else they would fade away. So what are the things in the group that Mr. Tata kept same and what are the things Mr. Tata changed during the course of his tenure?

Harish Bhat 39:59

So I think what he kept absolutely the same are the values of the group. The values of the group which were handed down to us from Jamshedji Tata, the founder. These are the values of integrity, the values of nation building.

Those values were kept absolutely intact and he actually nurtured those values. I would say he fiercely protected and nurtured those values of integrity and nation building and contributing to nation-building both through philanthropy as well as through industry, both ways. What changed was the complexion of the group, the industries that the group represented.

I have spoken earlier in this interview about the movement into passenger cars, but the Tatas also entered many other fields. They entered financial services. The Tatas entered many more consumer industries during this period of time.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 40:48

Tanishq is one of them.

Harish Bhat 40:49

Tanishq is one of them which happened in 1996-97 when the entry into Tanishq happened. Financial services was a new entry, aerospace and defense was a new entry.

So there were many areas of new entry as well. So I think the complexion of the industries in which the group was present changed. What also changed was, I think, the giving of a uniform brand identity to the Tata group, making sure that the Tata group transformed itself and unified itself under a single identity.

That was a big transformation under Ratan Tata’s time and you must remember that in 1991 when Mr. Ratan Tata took over as the chairman, that was the same year in which the liberalization of the Indian economy started. So Mr. Ratan Tata also encouraged all of us in the group to have a global mindset, to benchmark ourselves with the best companies in the globe. He himself led the globalization of the group, the acquisition of global brands such as Jaguar Land Rover, Corus, Tetley.

Those were global acquisitions which were pioneering acquisitions, had never happened before that in the history of India. So many of, so therefore the complexion of the industries in which the group was, the new industries the group went into, the unification of the Tata group under a single brand identity of Tata, all those were changes and transformations that happened under Ratan Tata’s leadership. But the values of the group, they remained absolutely intact.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 42:28

And if you have to summarize what was Tata group before and after Ratan Tata, how would you put it in numbers or stories or anecdotes?

Harish Bhat 42:36

Okay, I would say, you know the Tata group has always been a leader in India for many many decades now, has always been a leader in India. I think under Mr. Ratan Tata, very strong processes were built, very strong processes like the Tata business excellence model, the Tata code of conduct was codified, very strong institutional processes were built so that the future foundations of the group could be really secure. Tata Sons Stakes and some of the group companies were also enhanced to make sure that the ownership was well protected.

So I would say this was a time of consolidation and transformation of the group and making it future-ready.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 43:20

And what is surprising is that his own personal wealth was less than 500 million. How is it possible because the group is in hundreds of billions of dollars?

Harish Bhat 43:29

Okay, so this goes back fundamentally to the holding structure and the ownership of the Tata Group. The Tata group was founded by Jamshedji Tata. But after Jamshedji Tata’s time, his sons, Dorabji Tata and Ratanji Tata, left their wealth in large part to the Tata Trust.

And as a result, the Tata Trust became the ultimate owners of Tata Sons, the holding company of the group. And until now, more than 66 percent of the equity of Tata Sons, the holding company of the Tata group is owned by the Tata Trust. So the Tata group is quite unique in being one of the few corporate groups in the world which are not owned by a single family or not owned by PE funds or not owned by any such institution.

They are actually owned by the Tata Charitable Trust. So individuals like Mr. Ratan Tata have only a very, very small stake in Tata Sons. They are you know, they have a huge amount of ownership in their minds and with that ownership, they have led the group from strength to strength.

But their own financial equity stakes in the group are very, very minimal.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 44:45

And who owns the Tata Charitable Trust?

Harish Bhat 44:48

The Tata Charitable Trust is an independent charitable trust which has its own trustees and it has a very definite mandate to contribute to nation-building through many, many things that they do.

So I have spoken about cancer care and health care. That’s one of the mandates which is pursued as much as is digital literacy, as much as is the water mission in India or helping India fight natural disasters. So for instance, when we had COVID-19 a few years ago, the Tata Trust and Tata Sons together in March 2020 announced that they would be committing 1,500 crores to the fight against COVID-19.

I still remember that announcement being made by Mr. Ratan Tata and Mr. Chandrasekaran and it was an amazing announcement because we were in the midst of so much uncertainty. But it just reassured me that the heart of the Tata group is where it has always been, which is that the community is center stage and we make profits.We are, The Tata group is a very agile, profitable institution, but a large part of those profits go back into the community.

You know, In the words of JRD Tata, what comes from the people goes back to the people time and again.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 46:05

And if you have to describe you know, the professional life of Ratan Tata within the Tata group, how would you describe it in the last 50-60 years that he spent there?

Harish Bhat 46:15

So Ratan Tata joined the Tata group in the 1960s and he joined in Jamshedpur, where he did stints with Tata Motors and Tata Steel. And that was the beginning of his career. I think it was 1962 when he joined the Tata group.

His first major leadership assignment was as the managing director of Nelco, which he held for some time and he transformed that company during his leadership. So that was, I think, one phase. Thereafter, he became the chairman of Tata Industries and where he proposed the first strategic plan for the transformation and growth of the Tata group.

And as chairman of Tata Industries, I would say that was the second phase. The third phase was when he became the chairman of Tata Sons and he was the chairman of Tata Sons for two decades. In the first decade, which was primarily the 1990s, was a decade of consolidation, a decade of bringing the Tata group closer together, a decade of laying the firm foundations for the group.

The second decade was a decade of globalization. This was the 2000s, globalization of powering business excellence, of making the group future-ready. So that, I would say, was the third phase, when he was the chairman of Tata Sons.

And then the fourth phase was after he retired as chairman of Tata Sons when he was leading the as the chairman of the Tata Trust, which was when he dedicated a lot of his time to philanthropy and through very important causes like the fight against cancer care. And this was also the phase of his life where he was an evangelist to many startups across the country. I don’t know too much about that part of his life.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 48:05

But he lent his name and brand very generously to startups.

Harish Bhat 48:08

He was very passionate about young India. And I think I have never spoken to him about this.

But from what he did for startups, and from how passionately he spoke about startups, I could see that he believed that the future of India, a large part of the future of India, would come through startups that young people like you are setting up within this country.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia:

When was the last time when you met him personally?

Harish Bhat:

I met him at the,at the, you know, on July 29th each year, we have a meet at NCPA in Mumbai to celebrate JRD Tata’s birthday.

It’s called the JRDQE meet each year, which happens on July 29th. So the last I met him was on July 29th at NCPA in Mumbai.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 49:02

In 2024?

Harish Bhat 49:02

In 2024. And I remember meeting him in 2023 as well on July 29th. I went up to him in 2023, July 29th, stood before him and said a few words.

He looked at me and he smiled. And I will carry that occasion forever and ever in my mind.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 49:21

How did just observing Mr. Ratan Tata change you as a leader, as a person?

Harish Bhat 49:29

I think Mr. Ratan Tata has inspired me. He has inspired me with his courage. He has inspired me with a sense of integrity.

He has inspired me with the man he was, his humility and his grace. Those are characteristics, those are attributes that I would aspire to in my life. I think he made me a kinder person.

I think he has made me always think about the people-related aspects of any business that I was managing or any work that I was doing. And I think he’s always made me conscious that, you know, when you’re dealing with the Tata brand, you’re dealing with a brand with so much heritage, with the values which it is very, very important to protect. So that consciousness he would always bring that, you know, in So when I was brand custodian of the Tata group, that would always sit uppermost in my mind, that it’s a brand which has to be handled with great care because it stands for so much, not just for all of us in the Tata group, but I would think for every Indian.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 50:43

Anything, Anything that today impacts Tata group both positively and negatively, impacts the image of India globally?

Harish Bhat 50:52

I have no doubt about that. I think the Tata group is a flag bearer for corporate India and for India in general. And, you know, there are some brands which make a transition from just belonging to their shareholders and actually belonging to the nation.

And I think the Tata group is one such brand.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 51:17

Well, one thing that, you know, what I’ve admired about Mr. Ratan Tata is, no matter how fragile physically he seemed to be, he, he would always try to come to events and encourage others. I don’t know how he managed that.

Harish Bhat 51:34

I have also seen that. I have also seen that he would come to events, important events of the Tata group, and he would always be there for us. I think he was, you know, he was a person who always wanted to fulfill his commitments to others.

There’s a famous line. The line is from the Nano launch. But I think it’s a line that stood for Ratan Tata’s philosophy.

And Ratan Tata once said, as you’re aware, a promise is a promise. For him, a promise was always a promise. If he made a promise to you, he would go out of his way to fulfill it.

I have seen essays written by senior people in the Tata group that even if he were a little unwell, he would go out of his way to make sure the visit that he committed to happened or a meeting that he promised someone would happen. So that was very, very important. And I think that’s very important, Siddhartha, in our lives.

If we make a commitment to each other, upholding that commitment, that is the foundation of civilization and culture. And Mr. Ratan Tata stood for that. I’m told he would be very restless until he actually fulfilled the commitment that he made to others.

That was very, very important for him. And I think that’s a learning all of us can take away.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 52:46

Absolutely. One thing that I think about often, it’s not that I worry now, is what would be Tata group now when Mr. Ratan Tata is not physically with us?

Harish Bhat 52:57

I think the values of the Tata group are very strongly institutionalized. They have been institutionalized since the time of Jamshedji Tata. And, you know in a recent book that Mr. Gopalakrishnan and I have written, we have actually discussed how those values have been institutionalized. In addition, we are very, very proud and privileged to have leaders who carry those values on their shoulders very, very strongly. So I have no doubt that the values of the Tata group will remain firm, protected and nurtured for the next 150 years.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 53:29

Thank you so much, Harish. I think this conversation, this podcast episode celebrates the life of Mr. Ratan Tata. I couldn’t have been better beginning to the new year for me, for the audience, than to, you know take something away from his life and imbibe it with us.

Harish Bhat 53:47

So I agree with you, Siddhartha. As we are starting 2025, I just want to wish all your viewers a very, very happy new year. And whenever we look for inspiration, one of the people we can definitely turn to is Mr. Ratan Tata. His life has many lessons for us. And not just lessons, his life holds many inspirations for us that we can turn to either when we are doing well or when we need a moment of reassurance. I think just looking at this life, looking at some of the stories of his life, looking at what he has achieved for the Tata group and for corporate India in general is something that will always give us a boost.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 54:27

And I’ll always remember the three qualities that you told me about that I’ll aspire to rise up which are integrity, honesty, nation-building and courage.

Harish Bhat 54:40

That’s right. Honesty, integrity and courage. Very, very important personal characteristics of Mr. Ratan Tata.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 54:47

And it all contributed to his desire for nation-building.

Harish Bhat 54:52

No doubt. Nation building, I think was center stage in his life as it has been in the life of the Tata group over 156 years now. And honesty, integrity and courage were core attributes, core personality traits that Mr. Ratan Tata exhibited throughout his life.

Siddhartha Ahluwalia 55:10

Thank you so much, Harish. I’m really grateful to you for making this episode happen. And I’m grateful to Mr. Ratan Tata for inspiring generations and generations.

Harish Bhat 55:20

Thank you, Siddhartha. Thank you very much for having me on the show. And it’s been such a wonderful conversation with you on the life and times of Mr. Ratan Tata. Thank you.